Library Node /Collapse Tree Function [2570] - Fixed 1203

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cmx
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Library Node /Collapse Tree Function [2570] - Fixed 1203

Post by cmx »

Just downloaded 1202 to try when I saw the Track # issue had been resolved. Excited about new features....BUT

Large problem though.

Evidently the display style of the "Collapse Tree" and Library Node has been changed. Whenever these are selected now ALL tracks are loadced in the main window.

This is a problem with my large library...even on my new Dual Core 121k tracks bog things down and make for distracting display issues.

I relied on the "Collapse Tree" and Library node to "free" up things and allow quick and easy transition between nodes and searches.

I would suggest reverting to the previous behavior- NOT having ALL tracks in the whole Library displayed in Main Window at the Library node or when "Collapse Tree" F7 is used.

I noted that some users seem to like this new behavior- SO.... an "All Tracks" node might take care of this need (If I wanted all tracks displayed in the past I have used "Artist" node).

As it is now...any time I want to collapse the tree to figure out where i am or begin another tree search ALL 121k tracks are loaded in the main...this really bogs everything down and has been locking up MM at times.

Reverting to production....it has been impossible to navigate quickly and easily.

Thanks for any help on this.
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Re: Library Node /Collapse Tree Function

Post by nohitter151 »

I have to disagree with you. I can't even begin to tell you how many times I see users confused when they click on "Library" and there are no tracks in the library - thinking that for some reason their entire collections are gone or that add/rescan tracks to the library has failed.

If you think about it, it doesn't make much sense for something labeled "Library" to be totally empty.

Click on the playlists node if you want the main panel to be empty.
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cmx
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Re: Library Node /Collapse Tree Function

Post by cmx »

Not surprised, you disagree with pretty much everything I ask about.

This is a make or break thing with me...I can't use MM working this way. This is not some cosmetic issue...this is locking up a 2.8 Dual Core until the window is fully populated with 121k tracks...

For any tree/node navigation system including all windows based software I have ever used...the main display window is NOT populated when a parent node is expanded. It is simply not standard...and for a reason. It not a question of "thinking about it" its simply normal behavior.

I'll look at it some more when I get the time...but as it is...I have to revert.
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Re: Library Node /Collapse Tree Function

Post by nohitter151 »

cmx wrote:Not surprised, you disagree with pretty much everything I ask about.
Okay? I guess you should be glad I don't carry any real weight around here then. :P :roll:

Really I'm just voicing my own concerns here. This is a feature that I want in MM.
This is a make or break thing with me...I can't use MM working this way. This is not some cosmetic issue...this is locking up a 2.8 Dual Core until the window is fully populated with 121k tracks...

For any tree/node navigation system including all windows based software I have ever used...the main display window is NOT populated when a parent node is expanded. It is simply not standard...and for a reason. It not a question of "thinking about it" its simply normal behavior.

I'll look at it some more when I get the time...but as it is...I have to revert.
I don't really see the big deal. Just don't click on the Library node.
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Re: Library Node /Collapse Tree Function

Post by Mizery_Made »

Not to jump on the bandwagon here, but nohitter is correct, cmx. The fact the Library node showed nothing has often been brought up by users, finding it to be odd behavior. This isn't nohitter just disagreeing with you because he just wants to, he's merely pointing out that the consensus in the past has been as he stated.
cmx
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Re: Library Node /Collapse Tree Function

Post by cmx »

Hmm...the big deal is as I said- it is locking up the CPU and bogging down my system whenever I perform ANY action utilizing the NAV tree...everything reverts to the "Library" node...using it or the "Collapse Tree" function has been the only way I am able to efficiently navigate my files.

Now these do not work. There is no way to stop MM from loading all the files.

It is not standard in any way to have the "root" node load and display all files in a Library or system...as a rule the "sub-directories" or child nodes are displayed. Its simply standard and logical.

While I do not see the logic of having MM behave in an ineffiecient and non-standard way, if this is a functionality the devs want to maintain then I would please ask:

Please allow the "Collapse Tree" command to simply operate as before: expand the main "Library" node displaying the child nodes for selection BUT DO NOT populate the main window with ALL library files...the user could then actively "select" the library node to have all files displayed as ALL the other nodes CURRENTLY function.

There simply needs to be a way to "reset" the tree WITHOUT populating the main window and locking MM/CPU till its done. If people have 50k or less tracks then maybe it would not be as noticable...but here it is stopping MM dead in its tracks. I always have to use care in navigating my library to avoid "lag" because of the size of the DB.

I don't really know what the comment about using the playlist node accomplishes....if I use the icon it serves no purpose other than selecting playlist node...it does not collapse the Nav or orient me for further search...and if you will notice...you are pointing out that the two "equivalent" nodes on the nav tree are functioning and responding DIFFERENTLY....or would you have the playlist node display ALL tracks in ALL playlists?...

Miz...consensus?...a consensus of people that want a specific customization of MM possibly...there are scripts that can make custom nodes to do and display pretty much whatever you want....work with that...I don't know....but this new functionality creates a fundamental functional disconnect and performance issues...when I first started using MM I too felt the need for a node that simply displayed ALL the tracks...I used scripts to make custom nodes...that really became too complicated so I simply use the "Artist" node if I want ALL individual tracks listed. We went through quite a round of back and forth about the compostion and organization of the nodes in the past...hence "Artist" vs " Album Artist" vs "Artist & Album Artist" nodes...

If people are hung up on the name and being confused...then DEVS...call the library node something else and create a new child node called "Library" or " All Tracks" or whatever- that simply lists all tracks and operates/responds in the same way as all the nodes currently do.

Seems like the uniformity, functionality, performance and logic of the system is being compromised because of the "semantics" of the Node descriptors.
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Re: Library Node /Collapse Tree Function

Post by nynaevelan »

First off let me say that I am one of those users who like the ability to view all tracks in the Library node, this behavior saves me countless time by not having to navigate to the TItle node in order to see my entire library. And I have never understood the inability to not use the main node for the library.

BUT I am seeing two different behaviors when trying to collapse the library so I can understand CMX's frustration with the degradation in functionality. If you select the +/- next to the Library node in order to expand/collapse the tree you do not lose the view you are in while at the same time not bogging the system down. However, if you use the hotkeys to setup a hotkey to collapse the tree then your system is locked up for a few seconds while it runs the process, and on my library the hotkey is not collapsing the tree, it is instead jumping to the Library node which in facts makes you lose your view and load all the tracks into the main view. Now I may be missing the point but the "Collapse the Tree" hotkey function is not actually collapsing the tree,it is actually taking you to the main libary node. Shouldn't this actually be Jump to Library Node and a Collapse the Tree hotkey be created that actually collapses all the tree nodes, while at the same time NOT jumping to the Library node? Forgive my ignorance but I am misunderstanding what collapse the tree means, to me it means collapsing all the nodes within the library tree, which I have to admit in the past I have always done by manually hitting the +/- key. To visually make my point here is what my libary looks like when I have collapsed the tree:

Image

When in fact in my mind it should look like this when it is collapsed:

Image

My interpretation of the first pic is that it is collapsing the nodes and not the tree, while the second pic it is collapsing the tree. Am I misinterpreting again??

Nyn
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Bex
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Re: Library Node /Collapse Tree Function

Post by Bex »

I think this new feature is useful for new users but it should be configurable.
Also pressing F7 (=Collapse the tree) shouldn't set the focus to the Library-Node but the Location-Node instead, for obvious reasons.

I added this to Mantis:
http://www.ventismedia.com/mantis/view.php?id=2570
Advanced Duplicate Find & Fix Find More From Same - Custom Search. | Transfer PlayStat & Copy-Paste Tags/AlbumArt between any tracks.
Tagging Inconsistencies Do you think you have your tags in order? Think again...
Play History & Stats Node Like having your Last-FM account stored locally, but more advanced.
Case & Leading Zero Fixer Works on filenames too!

All My Scripts
cmx
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Re: Library Node /Collapse Tree Function

Post by cmx »

nyn thanks for the thoughtful post. Always good to advance the discussion. When I discuss something here concerning MM use, I try to keep in mind the functionality for ALL users...consistent logic and user choice is always the best. By changing the behavior of individual nodes to meet specific user's tastes at the expense of others...I think that is going down the wrong road..did someone say iTunes?

Yes I agree, the behavior of the "collapse tree" icon/function button does not seem logical- IF you equate the "Library" node to the "Web" node or "Net Radio" node or "My Computer" node...BUT it IS logical as far as Tree Navigation of the actual music files on your computer and in your "Library" is concerned if you consider it the "Root" node as I do... below I suggest a possibly better solution for all. (BEX defaulting to "Location" node doesn't seem the most logical for all users either)

If you ONLY want to see a full listing of all tracks, and you want to do it quickly and easily, I think that is totally legit. Its not the way I happen to use MM right now and by having the "root" of the nav tree display all tracks it actually bogs down the system and makes it difficult for me to navigate and work with my library...it is a devolution. One question too...are you primarily using the "Navigation Bar" or the Nav Tree itself? I am referring primarily to the function of the Nav Tree itself.

I suggest the devs make ALL "first tier" nodes operate ubiquitously as the Library node did previously- TO JUST display child nodes NOT all files of all child/sub nodes. It is simply not practical nor logical to have the tree operate otherwise and it is clearly confusing when different nodes respond differently.

To gives users choice and control I suggest the Devs make Nav Tree Toolbar buttons available for ALL nodes that would allow a user the open the child node of user's choice with ONE CLICK. This is something I have been looking forward to with the new toolbar customization ONE CLICK ACCESS TO ANY NODE....but is not available on the Nav tree toolbar.

I like things clean and simple too nyn...but one person's clean and simple is another's mess. DEVS give us choice and the ability to customize...with this you can implement a simple "default" configuration for new users that addresses the learning curve and the needs of what you determine to be the "consensus" without disabling or downgrading MM itself.

Hopefully this discussion can continue positively and with suggetions and solutions that benefit all users.
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Re: Library Node /Collapse Tree Function [2570]

Post by nynaevelan »

CMX:

I always find it fasinating to read how other users use MM to meet their needs. First to answer your questions, no I do not use the navigation toolbar, I only use the tree navigation itself. Also because I have become VERY accustomed to using scripts I use Onenonymous' Right Click for Scripts script to customize the Now Playing and Standard toolbars for the particular scripts that I use for my daily use. I also use MoDementia's View Manager script to easily jump between my filters and custom views. So for me I rarely use the navigation tree itself because I can just pop up the particular view that I want. But when I do need to use the navigation tree, the Title node is the node that I use for viewing of my entire library. Unfortunately I have yet to find a script that would COMPLETELY collapse the tree when I have expanded it for whatever reason.

Also, let me add while I am thrilled the devs have made some toolbars customizable, for me the thrill is in the fact I can turn off MM shortcuts to make more room for my custom shortcuts. I only have the Standard, Search and Now Playing toolbars active, all others are turned off. Everything I need is either customized on my toolbars or the Right Click menu. Have I mentioned how lazy I've become with these conveniences??

As for the debate regarding whether the main node should contain all the tracks, I'm sure you will get good arguments for both sides. So yes I do believe this should be configurable. If only it was possible to turn this feature on/off. But I also agree the main nodes should have consistent behavior, but I am not vehemently for or against either option since this is not a feature that I regularly use or need.

Also, let me say this. I've read alot of comments from users who want and have demand alot of custom functionality to be available natively. For me, I am not that concerned that features/requests are delivered natively in MM. If I can get what I want via scripts, plugins or skins that I am content. There are many features available in MM that I do not use and have never used, but that does not mean they should be removed because they are useless to me. I LOVE the fact that MM allows it's users to create customizations to meet individual needs. I have never used a program that I have enjoyed as much as I do MM, but I digress.

As far as this feature, I do not know if the devs will go back to the way things were or continue with these new changes, but either way I will find a way to "workaround" it because I am not ready to give up using MM.

Nyn
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nynaevelan
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Re: Library Node /Collapse Tree Function

Post by nynaevelan »

Bex wrote: Also pressing F7 (=Collapse the tree) shouldn't set the focus to the Library-Node but the Location-Node instead, for obvious reasons.

I added this to Mantis:
http://www.ventismedia.com/mantis/view.php?id=2570
Bex:

I do not know if the Location node is a viable option to set as the default. Personally, I have the Location node turned off in all of my filters because I never use that node. With that in mind, what would that do to my navigation??

Nyn
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Bex
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Re: Library Node /Collapse Tree Function [2570]

Post by Bex »

I actually incorrectly thought that the Location Node was unhidable so my suggestion isn't possible to implement...
Advanced Duplicate Find & Fix Find More From Same - Custom Search. | Transfer PlayStat & Copy-Paste Tags/AlbumArt between any tracks.
Tagging Inconsistencies Do you think you have your tags in order? Think again...
Play History & Stats Node Like having your Last-FM account stored locally, but more advanced.
Case & Leading Zero Fixer Works on filenames too!

All My Scripts
cmx
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Re: Library Node /Collapse Tree Function [2570]

Post by cmx »

What she said Bex...lol..the function of the "Collapse" function has been perfect for me up till now. Would serve no purpose for me focusing on the Location node.

Nyn, I use NO scripts...just too much complexity and a batch of maintenance issues from past experience. Here, simple is best, and MM has provided basic, complete and logical functionality that has made simplicity possible.
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Re: Library Node /Collapse Tree Function [2570]

Post by nynaevelan »

cmx wrote:
Nyn, I use NO scripts...just too much complexity and a batch of maintenance issues from past experience. Here, simple is best, and MM has provided basic, complete and logical functionality that has made simplicity possible.
:lol: :lol: What was that you said about one person's simplicity is another's mess? For me scripts are required for me to maintain simplicity...

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Re: Library Node /Collapse Tree Function [2570]

Post by Teknojnky »

As has been mentioned already, having the root library node populate with all library tracks has long and often requested feature and source of confusion for many new mediamonkey users.

However, I also agree with cmx, that this feature with very large libraries can cause an un-necessary delay/freeze of MM while it loads the track list.

I suggest that this simply be added to the library options: Show all tracks in library node (check/uncheck)

Another potential option would be, to make F7 collapse the tree without changing the current node.

BTW, cmx I also suggest you run maintain library if you have not recently. I run mm3.1 on my laptop (dual core 2.0 ghz) and it does not peg either core when doing F7, but 1 core is about 50%.

My 3.1 library database is ~650 megs with ~150k tracks @ ~1.2 tb.
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