BUGS... Non-Lyric Tags changed when Auto-Updating Lyrics...

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Lowlander
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Re: BUGS... Non-Lyric Tags changed when Auto-Updating Lyrics...

Post by Lowlander »

Barry misunderstood.

When MediaMonkey tags any tag it always writes all database values to the tag. So if you're just modifying Lyrics then all tags are rewritten. This is why date is also rewritten. For maximum compatibility MediaMonkey writes it the default method for MP3, but this can be changed by the user. The values written are those in the MediaMonkey database.
Perhaps Infer file properties (disable under Tools > Options > Library) had inferred tags from the folder/filename? This would then be written to the files anytime you change any tag.

There is a bug as described, but it only occurs if you changed the tag settings from Auto-Tag itself. If you had set it to just Lyrics prior to Auto-Tag it only tags Lyrics.

Auto-Tag can be cancelled.
leeuniverse
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Re: BUGS... Non-Lyric Tags changed when Auto-Updating Lyrics...

Post by leeuniverse »

So, if the bottom line is that this program literally doesn't have the ability to "exclude" Tags being updated and overwritten?
I mean just WOW... :o

Then WHAT is the "purpose" of the Auto-Tagging "Select" section in which you can select what Tags are updated?

Also, are you saying that the proper DATE format for MP3s is a "double date" for cross compatibility? (1999\\1999 or 2020\\2020-04-02) which are what my dates look like now?
leeuniverse
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Re: BUGS... Non-Lyric Tags changed when Auto-Updating Lyrics...

Post by leeuniverse »

Barry4679 wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 5:50 am All that I can replicate is:
  1. if I start a Auto-Tag operation by firstly pressing its Options button, to change the list of tags that may be affected
  2. then just those tracks that I selected, in that batch, are not affected by the new rules that I created via the Options button
  3. the new rules appear to be respected for any subsequent Auto-Tag batches
So Barry.... Just to be clear what you're saying above, if I edit the Options with the Option Button in Auto-Tag, it WILL actually do what I was wanting all along, which is to ONLY "add" the Lyrics and NOT touch any other tags? And will it do the same for each click of the "Tag and Continue" Button, or does the happy "bug" not occur when you do that?

In other words, only if you activate auto-tag again from the Right-click menu will the "bug" not occur?
So, sounds like you've discovered a "Feature", what I was actually needing to do in the first place?

If I can force the program with this "bug" to just update the Lyrics, that's the SIMPLE thing I was needing all along.
BTW, I discovered by backup Drive had already run before most of the major changes, so my life isn't "entirely" ruined. THANK HEAVENS... Though, I saw there is a "small" number of files that changed, that I will have to fix I think.

I still can't believe after all this time this feature isn't actually IN MediaMonkey. I mean, I can't be the "only" person that gets pissed off due to the program changing their Tags without their permission?
Lowlander
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Re: BUGS... Non-Lyric Tags changed when Auto-Updating Lyrics...

Post by Lowlander »

To be clear there is no method/option to have MediaMonkey not rewrite all tags from database to file when you update the value of a single tag.

This is not an issue for the vast majority of users.
leeuniverse
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Re: BUGS... Non-Lyric Tags changed when Auto-Updating Lyrics...

Post by leeuniverse »

Lowlander wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 11:10 am To be clear there is no method/option to have MediaMonkey not rewrite all tags from database to file when you update the value of a single tag.

This is not an issue for the vast majority of users.
I would say only because likely most users are fine with "auto" not having to think about anything.
But, I'm sure there are plenty like me who actually only want to edit certain tags, and not have others touched, who like to take special care of each music file.

To us, this is a BASIC feature of a program like MediaMonkey which has all these features in relation to Tags. This ability would be a BASIC requirement.

Also, I still have two questions after all of this...

1. What is the Options section for then in where you select what Tags are edited, you can select Album, Lyrics also.
I mean, that entire section doesn't make any sense if all Tags are just "auto-updated" despite your say?

2. As I mentioned above, is the MP3 format "supposed" to have "double-dates"?
Not_tech_savy
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Re: BUGS... Non-Lyric Tags changed when Auto-Updating Lyrics...

Post by Not_tech_savy »

Geez, calm down lee. When you set up the scan for files section make sure auto tag is off. Don't prefer the the faster version, do the finger printing. Small batches at a time till your sure it's set up right. I've noticed if you do one album at a time it is much more accurate or it freaks out thinking it's all a massive compilation. (Idk about lyrics but if you right click a certain field and ask it to just finger print that sometimes more accurate info appears) If it changes say the artist click on that artist and select old value. I would change the percentage thing to 85 or 90
Most of my music is underground stuff, so I'm surprised it actually changes tags.

Haven't used auto tag in latest update but in the previous beta (there's probably a much easier way to do this) for all my music that I know is right. I set up auto "conversion" to move my stuff and delete old folders and had it change filename to include track#-title-artist-album-genre - date (date numbers will be separated by - so include spaces so as to not get confused) then updated tags based on filename and rescanned library. And auto tag gave me less problems when I used it after that.
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Barry4679
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Re: BUGS... Non-Lyric Tags changed when Auto-Updating Lyrics...

Post by Barry4679 »

Lowlander wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 9:34 am Barry misunderstood.
I don't think so. I understood everything you wrote.
It was easy because you didn't write much that 1st time.
Lowlander wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 9:34 am When MediaMonkey tags any tag it always writes all database values to the tag. So if you're just modifying Lyrics then all tags are rewritten. This is why date is also rewritten. For maximum compatibility MediaMonkey writes it the default method for MP3, but this can be changed by the user. The values written are those in the MediaMonkey database.
Perhaps Infer file properties (disable under Tools > Options > Library) had inferred tags from the folder/filename? This would then be written to the files anytime you change any tag.
The situation is much clearer now. Thanks for the explanation.

So, other than the 1st time through bug, the only exposure is:
  • user has tracks indexed by MM database
  • user changes some tags via an external tool
  • user then uses MM5 Auto-tag, for some selected tracks, to import a tag set which they can limit
  • MM5 will update the database with just that limited tag set, from the Internet, after user review and approval of any changes
  • and then MM5 automatically syncs ALL tags in the track selection; ie. from database -> the actual tracks
  • ===> the tag changes made in step #2 have been overwritten
This is As Designed. The user needs to know that if they make tag changes to their tracks using some external tool. they need to synch their database by either having MM monitor there track locations for any external changes, or they need to Add/ReScan their media locations to inform MM of the changes.

I have some comments:
  1. it seems unexpected and undocumented and unrequired that MM5 would refresh ALL tags to the database when the Users has asked for update to a limited tags set ...
    • it is "unrequired" because there is a function for this exact purpose (Update Tags)
    • it is "unexpected" because it is unnecessary, and the comment that the only documentation makes on the subject is "[MediaMonkey] allows you to set which tags are updated by Auto-Tag for Audio files and Video files." ... and the UI clearly creates this expectation also
  2. On balance I don't think that it is bad thing that MediaMonkey takes every opportunity to keep music tracks in sync with database|ui values ... Nor do I think that it is unreasonable that the user be held responsible for advising MM of any changes they make via an external tool ... but I do think that the documentation lets them down:
    • in the Basic Concepts section of the documentation there should be a clear topic explaining the importance of informing MM of any external changes, and illustrating the two ways to achieve this ... it should be towards the front, before that section descends into the existing techno-babble
    • the Auto... tools sections of the manual should advise the user to bring their MM db up to date first, if there has been any important track tag alterations by an external tool
    • and most importantly the UI should display this warning also
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leeuniverse
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Four needed FEATURES after considerable testing...

Post by leeuniverse »

First, I want to say I'm sorry for coming on strong with my recent complaints, but this has been serious for me, and what should be a BASIC feature in my mind as not existing, which ended up causing 100's of files being broke and now having to go through every single one of some 3,500 files to fix and verify the data, as well the features I "thought" were the features in question weren't (and I still don't know what they are for, meaning the Metadata Lookup section in options in which you can supposedly "select" what data Auto-Tag works with) was a big frustration.

In other words, that section didn't do what it seemed to be setup to do, i.e. controlling what tags are touched by autotagger.

Anyway, there are two features I'm needing to do the essential things I need, being basic to simply get my files updated...

1. The ability to "Select" what Tags are either "updated" and/or "overwritten" in your files when you use Auto-Tag...

2. In the "Files to Edit" menu we need the option to show files with "Missing Lyrics"... Even better, it would be good if there was a section in Options in which we could "select" what options we added to that menu as files to edit. MusicBee for example has this feature to sort files that have missing lyrics for easy edit.

So, there could be default options similar to how we currently have, and then we can "add or remove" options from that section. In other words, we should be able to "edit" whatever Tag etc. we want, having it listed to make them easy to edit.

3. Be able to Copy/Move the files that are missing the tag for example, to a new folder, so they can be individually edited if need be outside of the program. MusicBee has this feature as an example.

4. Be able to right-click and Search for Lyrics on Google or otherwise for a particular song (maybe it could be a button in Property's so we are there to manually edit the lyrics tag just like you have a "Search Button" in the Lyrics Tab of properties which already searches the lyrics websites?). MusicBee also has the "web search" for lyrics feature as an example, and it works nice....

Actually, the way they do it which would be best... is when you're searching for the Lyrics with the various websites, you can check a "checkbox" and ONLY if there is nothing found at the websites, it then "automatically" pops up your browser with a Google Lyric Web Search... So, this would actually be the best implementation if you could do it.

Anyway, these are primary features still missing from MediaMonkey, for me someone simply coming in and trying to manage/update my MP3 collection, so it would be helpful if these could be added. I'm coming at this as an average Joe, simply needing things to work and do what's basic needed.

You've done amazing as far as features otherwise, and I AM grateful... But as the program currently is, I'm likely going to have to use "MusicBee" which isn't even close to updated and full of features, as well as HumanMedia Lyrics Finder to update my Lyrics (which I've already done) Though, used both MM and Lyrics Finder since it's already too late, many of my files being destroyed, so still have to edit them. Each finds Lyrics the other doesn't.

Anyway, thank you, would be great if I could see these features soon... I plan on adding even more music to my collection, and I really need things working as they should by default. Thanks

(p.s., there may be other needed features, but these are the big important things I've noticed to get the essential work done with my files.)
leeuniverse
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Re: BUGS... Non-Lyric Tags changed when Auto-Updating Lyrics...

Post by leeuniverse »

Hey Barry...

I'm also perfectly fine with MM "auto syncing" with the database, so people don't have to think about their tags.
However, the issue is we really NEED the settings for the "exception to the rule", i.e. the cases in which we DON'T want other Tags touched, or in other words to be able to select what's touched, and what's overwritten. We need to be able to select these tags.

Also, as you mentioned, the Metadata Lookup section in Options gives the entire impression that THAT is what those settings are there for, for you to "select" what tags you want to be touched and not touched when using Auto-Tag. I mean, I frankly don't get it. What does that section even do and is for if not that?

Anyway, thanks for fleshing this all out... I've created a new post requesting the feature in question, as well as another I noticed I'll be also needing to update Lyrics. viewtopic.php?f=30&t=100296

Thanks again... :)
Barry4679
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Re: BUGS... Non-Lyric Tags changed when Auto-Updating Lyrics...

Post by Barry4679 »

Thanks for kind words.
leeuniverse wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 10:10 pm I'm also perfectly fine with MM "auto syncing" with the database, so people don't have to think about their tags.
However, the issue is we really NEED the settings for the "exception to the rule", i.e. the cases in which we DON'T want other Tags touched, or in other words to be able to select what's touched, and what's overwritten. We need to be able to select these tags.
The other way of looking at that is that it won't "touch" other tags if your tracks are in sync with your MM database.
And having your database be in sync with your tracks is a state of goodness, and is a design expectation of MediaMonkey.
The easy way to achieve that it is to allow MM to monitor your music folder(s).
See here.
leeuniverse wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 10:10 pm Also, as you mentioned, the Metadata Lookup section in Options gives the entire impression that THAT is what those settings are there for, for you to "select" what tags you want to be touched and not touched when using Auto-Tag. I mean, I frankly don't get it. What does that section even do and is for if not that?
It is to stop MM from acquiring and applying Internet tags that don't want to receive.
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leeuniverse
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Re: BUGS... Non-Lyric Tags changed when Auto-Updating Lyrics...

Post by leeuniverse »

Barry4679 wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 10:59 pm Thanks for kind words.

The other way of looking at that is that it won't "touch" other tags if your tracks are in sync with your MM database.
And having your database be in sync with your tracks is a state of goodness, and is a design expectation of MediaMonkey.
The easy way to achieve that it is to allow MM to monitor your music folder(s).
See here.
The only issue is that's not how it's working. I've always put all of my files in the MM database since I've started trying to use MM a few days agos, not sleeping almost at all working on these issues.
Though, the only difference is I didn't allow "monitoring" of my files... but I wasn't changing them either to any issue when testing MM.
leeuniverse wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 10:10 pm It is to stop MM from acquiring and applying Internet tags that don't want to receive.
Again, not how it's actually working... It doesn't stop the acquisition and applying of tags a person doesn't want.
You think it does, that's what the section looks like it should do, but like has been said, the program automatically updates ALL TAGS when you edit one, no matter what you've selected to prevent such in that section.
Barry4679
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Re: BUGS... Non-Lyric Tags changed when Auto-Updating Lyrics...

Post by Barry4679 »

leeuniverse wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 11:12 pm Again, not how it's actually working... It doesn't stop the acquisition and applying of tags a person doesn't want.
You think it does, that's what the section looks like it should do, but like has been said, the program automatically updates ALL TAGS when you edit one, no matter what you've selected to prevent such in that section.
My working theory is:
  • that your MM database's view of your tags was out of sync with your actual track tags
  • this was caused by your mp3Tag and Picard updates, that MM was unaware on
  • the MM5 auto-sync did what you asked, ie only updated your MM database with Lyric info ... unless you were hit with that first-through bug discussed yesterday
  • and after MM5 had imported the Lyrics, it then "upgraded" your tracks with all of your old tags which had remained in your MM database
  • this wiped out some of your mp3Tag and Picard work
  • MM is designed with the assumption that your database tags == your track tags
  • this will be the case unless you use external tools to update your track tags .... is preferable that you use MM for tagging purpose
The optional Monitoring facility makes it easy and safe for people who want to use it external tools to update track tags. It watches nominated folders for any changes, and auto-imports these changes into the MM database.

Otherwise you have to rescan tracks that you have updated using external tools.


leeuniverse wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 11:12 pm not sleeping almost at all working on these issues.
not the best plan ... but you already know that :)
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Lowlander
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Re: BUGS... Non-Lyric Tags changed when Auto-Updating Lyrics...

Post by Lowlander »

leeuniverse wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 9:59 pm1. The ability to "Select" what Tags are either "updated" and/or "overwritten" in your files when you use Auto-Tag...
As being discussed here, that's already the case. If you can reproduce that Auto-Tag retrieves other tags than those selected (besides the bug already reported) then please capture it in a debug log (step 4b) and attach it to a Support Ticket.
leeuniverse wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 9:59 pm2. In the "Files to Edit" menu we need the option to show files with "Missing Lyrics"
You can create this with same experience with an AutoPlaylist with Criteria Lyrics is unknown.
leeuniverse wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 9:59 pm3. Be able to Copy/Move the files that are missing the tag
Don't know this feature, so I don't know what it exactly does. However you can use Auto-Organize Files or Auto-Organize to move files.
leeuniverse wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 9:59 pm4. Be able to right-click and Search for Lyrics on Google
Don't know if this helps with this: https://www.mediamonkey.com/addons/brow ... how-links/
leeuniverse
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Re: BUGS... Non-Lyric Tags changed when Auto-Updating Lyrics...

Post by leeuniverse »

Lowlander wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 9:45 am
leeuniverse wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 9:59 pm1. The ability to "Select" what Tags are either "updated" and/or "overwritten" in your files when you use Auto-Tag...
As being discussed here, that's already the case. If you can reproduce that Auto-Tag retrieves other tags than those selected (besides the bug already reported) then please capture it in a debug log (step 4b) and attach it to a Support Ticket.
leeuniverse wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 9:59 pm2. In the "Files to Edit" menu we need the option to show files with "Missing Lyrics"
You can create this with same experience with an AutoPlaylist with Criteria Lyrics is unknown.
leeuniverse wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 9:59 pm3. Be able to Copy/Move the files that are missing the tag
Don't know this feature, so I don't know what it exactly does. However you can use Auto-Organize Files or Auto-Organize to move files.
leeuniverse wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 9:59 pm4. Be able to right-click and Search for Lyrics on Google
Don't know if this helps with this: https://www.mediamonkey.com/addons/brow ... how-links/
1. Several people and I think including you have already told me that MediaMonkey doesn't have the ability to select what tags you want and don't want to have updated?
They've said that when you "save" the file MediaMonkey will update ALL Tags according to the database.

Though, they haven't actually said what that section really does then if it doesn't do what it seems to have been designed for?
That's what this entire thread is about.

2. Okay, thanks.

3. So, what this means is in MusicBee you list the files for example that have no lyrics tags.
You then select the files, right-click I think it was, and you can select Copy or Move to actually cause those files to be copied/moved to a particular directory, so you can work on them separately. It can be a really useful function.

4. Could be useful... But I'm talking about a Link that will specifically do a Google search for lyrics, the search is formatted that way automatically.
The way it works is you select and right-click a file go to Tags/Update Lyrics, a box will pop-up, which shows you the program will search the various lyrics website according to what's listed in the program (like MediaMonkey also does something similar), but then there's a "checkbox" below in which you can select to "do a Google search" for the Lyrics if the general lyrics search didn't find anything. It will just automatically pop-up doing a search in google after the job.

-----

Anyway, my biggest problem here is that the Metadata Auto-Lookup options page when changed accordingly didn't work like I thought. MediaMonkey didn't ignore the tags I removed, and only edit the Lyrics Tag as I selected, but it also updated many of my other tags, specifically ruining a couple 1,000 songs and their tags I've worked on after spending 100's of hours on them making them perfect.

So, the program did the very thing entirely on its OWN that I was trying to prevent.
THEN I was told by several people that MediaMonkey does NOT have the ability to set what tags it ignores, it just updates ALL per its database on saving the tags you're actually trying to edit, which flabbergasted me.

Also, the bug Barry reported, seems like a "feature" to me, because according to him the "way" he was doing it, MediaMonkey was actually doing exactly what I was wanting and it should have been, ONLY updating the Lyrics Tag, not touching others.

So I don't know, this is all messed up... I just thank heavens that I had a "backup" which was only "partially" edited by MediaMonkey, so I only have to fix "some" things, though still going through every file checking its tags to make sure nothing's messed up, and that's going to be at least another 100 hours of work. :(

I would also like to point out that MusicBee has worked fine continuing to update my files.
You want to update only Lyrics, you just right-click and select the option to do a search for lyrics and auto-update. Also, in their Settings, you select what Tags you want to be auto-updated either in the background and I think with the auto-tagger function.
So, MediaMonkey has been an extreme disappointment...

Not having features is one thing, actually "purposefully" destroying people's existing tags is unacceptable, especially when a person thought they were preventing just that, and trusting the program works as expected.
Lowlander
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Re: BUGS... Non-Lyric Tags changed when Auto-Updating Lyrics...

Post by Lowlander »

1) As indicated previously. Auto-Tag settings affect which tags Auto-Tag looks up. It will only lookup (and change) the selected tags. This is independent from how MediaMonkey writes tags when you make a tag changes. Then it does rewrite all tags with the database value, no matter if you changed 1 or many tags. Generally the database values should already be the same as the files tags, thus no actual changes (other than where tags were written differently than MediaMonkey writes them) would occur for most users, other than the tag(s) that Auto-Tag looked up.

3) As indicated you can use Auto-Organize Files to move files elsewhere: https://www.mediamonkey.com/wiki/WebHel ... enames/5.0
However as you can create a Collection or AutoPlaylist of files without Lyrics there is no need to move the files to have separate access to them within MediaMonkey. Use whatever works best in your work flow.
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