[REQ] Option to disable online accesses [#20489]

by **Timo_Beil** » Wed Apr 03, 2024 11:00 am

Maybe... I had allowed the Ventis IP 54.39.221.200 for updates, but after disabeling automatic updates google was only once contacted (216.58.206.35). Manually triggered update search doesn't contact google.

by **Barry4679** » Wed Apr 03, 2024 8:17 am

Timo_Beil wrote: ↑Wed Apr 03, 2024 2:48 am MM connects to Google U.S. with UDP 142.250.185.131:80 immediately on startup.

Is "Check for updates" checked in the General tab at Tools>Options?
maybe it is that?

by **Timo_Beil** » Wed Apr 03, 2024 2:48 am

rusty wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2024 10:53 am
3) Possible Bugs:
a)
Even if I disable all checkboxes in "Metadata lookup", MM sends data to somewhere on the web.
As indicated above, Peke is unable to replicate (assuming views containing 'Info panels/Related Artists' are disabled

b)
After deselecting all "Sources" for metadata lookup" MM secretly re-enables all three options.
I'm not seeing this with the latest beta build. If you are, can you elaborate?

Thanks in advance!

-Rusty

a) I can't replicate, that anyone in the world is drowning (assuming they walk around with a life jacket on at all times)

You really have to look at each individual (sub)node to see whether an infopanel is still activated there.
It takes a while until you have eliminated all info panels.

b) Sorry, this concerns the three sources in AutoTagging (here the internet access is deliberately initiated by the user).
So that this behavior can be classified as "strange" but useful.

Thanks for your suggestions. I will unblock MM in the firewall and start monitoring the traffic again.
EDIT:
MM connects to Google U.S. with UDP 142.250.185.131:80 immediately on startup.

by **Lowlander** » Mon Apr 01, 2024 11:51 pm

Artwork lookup no longer happens in the Filelisting (it did on older releases). Only Info panel does any auto-lookups (even when all lookups are disabled) on the latest beta. Disabling the Info panel should prevent any auto-lookups on the current beta.

by **Rob_S** » Mon Apr 01, 2024 10:48 pm

by Peke » Mon Apr 01, 2024 1:18 pm

Rob_S wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2024 9:37 am
Background image lookup is one of the ones I would like to be able to turn off, Lowlander said in one recent post this is currently impossible.
Lowlander referred to Info Panel that can't be shown and disable Internet access.

In response to the above, I was referring to the following statment by Lowlander:

Re: Missing Artwork For Single Release
Post by Lowlander » Tue Mar 12, 2024 8:26 am

Lookup will also happen when displaying Artwork in the Filelisting, this can't be disabled.

by **Barry4679** » Mon Apr 01, 2024 8:56 pm

Peke wrote: ↑Sun Mar 31, 2024 6:13 am Hi,
Barry4679 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2024 9:23 am It just seems illogical that I can turn off Internet access for tag, art & lyrics lookup, but I can't turn off the Wikipedia access.
Why? Just because Big Brother says so?
Disable Info Panel and it will not be shown/accessed

Thanks. I had forgotten that.
But it, and your various other workarounds, are not discoverable nor adequate for this situation IMO.

rusty wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2024 10:53 am 2) Need for users to easily disable 'background' and/or "non-obvious" internet connections. This is an approach that I think most of you are promoting that I agree makes sense. I haven't tested this but based on Peke's feedback my understanding is that if Media Sharing, Tag Lookups, and Info Panels are all disabled, then there are no 'non-obvious' outbound network connections from MMW 2024 (with the possible exception that ripping triggers CD lookups/AccuRip lookups). Peke tested this using Wire Shark and WFC to report all outbound internet traffic from MM (excluding LAN/WLAN/mDNS/DLNA/Multicast which are all local).

If the above is accurate then the only improvements that might be needed would be:
a) For Audio CD metadata lookup, add an option for 'none'
b) Make it more obvious how to disable Views or View Elements (e.g. Info Panel, Related Artists) that access the internet

Is that correct or am I missing something?

Rob_S wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2024 11:37 am Also, it makes sense that if I turn on the info panel, it includes some info from online, requiring a lookup, but some of the information comes froms tags locally. Thus, I would still like to be able to have the info panel in my view, but disable the online lookup, if that were possible.

I agree with Rob_S, disabling the Info panel View is not a palatable option for someone who wants to lockdown Internet|Wikipedia access.
When the Info panel is disabled the Album and Artist Detail nodes are headerless and ugly; no nice title showing what you are looking at, and no album art image, no genre summary, no duration for the album.
And without the Info panel, a person is barred from making an Internet lookup on the occasions that they want to do so.

I don't really understand why people want to limit usage of the internet. They hate waste, or they are concerned about their privacy, or are concerned about their PC security, by opening their PC to viruses? ... Whatever the reason, there seem to be people who want to use MM without having this uncontrollable enforced activity and apparent (to them) opening up of their PC.

It is clear how to reduce most unwanted auto background MM Internet activity, not intentionally requested by the user. IE. Artist & Album art lookups, lyrics lookup, tag lookups, scrobbling to LFM. It seems clear that MM has provided choice and control here.

Why is the Wikipedia lookup different? It is like a red flag to these people.
It looks like a unfortunate design omission.

All the hacker techy workarounds proposed by Peke just does MM reputational damage IMO. ... Sorry Peke, but that's how I see it.

by **rusty** » Mon Apr 01, 2024 8:34 pm

Thanks to everyone for the feedback. I've summarized it at:
https://www.ventismedia.com/mantis/view ... 638#c74912

Note: I suspect that this won't make it into this release; if not we can at least update our docs to better communicate the limitation and what the connections are.

-Rusty

p.s. Rob,
- Artist images/Artwork lookup can currently be disabled in MMW 2024 with the exception of the Info Panel.
- MMW's media sharing by default is set up for _local_ connectivity

by **Peke** » Mon Apr 01, 2024 3:18 pm

Rob_S wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2024 11:37 am Background image lookup is one of the ones I would like to be able to turn off, Lowlander said in one recent post this is currently impossible.

Lowlander referred to Info Panel that can't be shown and disable Internet access.
As Rusty pointed I have tested using WireShark and WFC to completely Lock MM from accessing Internet and LAN in order to track and LOG each and every outbound packet sent to LAN port. If I do that then info panel after some time Shows

Which is normal as it does not show any info and MM UI looks empty and unfinished.

Rob_S wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2024 11:37 am Also, it makes sense that if I turn on the info panel, it includes some info from online, requiring a lookup, but some of the information comes froms tags locally. Thus, I would still like to be able to have the info panel in my view, but disable the online lookup, if that were possible.

I am not sure if there is any point of having Info Panel unless you get info from online sources. I see your point, but that would mean we should add customization of Info panel and information it provides. Would that be satisfying for you? eg. you be able to customize layout of Info panel.

by **Rob_S** » Mon Apr 01, 2024 11:37 am

Yes, totally agree with you summary and much of your proposed resolution.

Background image lookup is one of the ones I would like to be able to turn off, Lowlander said in one recent post this is currently impossible.

Also, it makes sense that if I turn on the info panel, it includes some info from online, requiring a lookup, but some of the information comes froms tags locally. Thus, I would still like to be able to have the info panel in my view, but disable the online lookup, if that were possible.

Also, media sharing is often mentioned. However, surely this can be limited to my local network, so I can use it at home with no risk of "Internet" traffic taking place???

by **rusty** » Mon Apr 01, 2024 10:53 am

There seem to be a few issues being raised here:

1) Need by some sysadmins/paranoid users to block all internet traffic from MMW. As already described, connectivity is pretty much baked into various MM functions so this would be a significant endeavor and not some thing we would undertake lightly unless there's a real benefit for a large number of users.

2) Need for users to easily disable 'background' and/or "non-obvious" internet connections. This is an approach that I think most of you are promoting that I agree makes sense. I haven't tested this but based on Peke's feedback my understanding is that if Media Sharing, Tag Lookups, and Info Panels are all disabled, then there are no 'non-obvious' outbound network connections from MMW 2024 (with the possible exception that ripping triggers CD lookups/AccuRip lookups). Peke tested this using Wire Shark and WFC to report all outbound internet traffic from MM (excluding LAN/WLAN/mDNS/DLNA/Multicast which are all local).

If the above is accurate then the only improvements that might be needed would be:
a) For Audio CD metadata lookup, add an option for 'none'
b) Make it more obvious how to disable Views or View Elements (e.g. Info Panel, Related Artists) that access the internet

Is that correct or am I missing something?

3) Possible Bugs:
a)

Even if I disable all checkboxes in "Metadata lookup", MM sends data to somewhere on the web.

As indicated above, Peke is unable to replicate (assuming views containing 'Info panels/Related Artists' are disabled

b)

After deselecting all "Sources" for metadata lookup" MM secretly re-enables all three options.

I'm not seeing this with the latest beta build. If you are, can you elaborate?

Thanks in advance!

-Rusty

by **Peke** » Sun Mar 31, 2024 6:13 am

Hi,

Barry4679 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2024 9:23 am It just seems illogical that I can turn off Internet access for tag, art & lyrics lookup, but I can't turn off the Wikipedia access.
Why? Just because Big Brother says so?

Disable Info Panel and it will not be shown/accessed

by **Barry4679** » Wed Mar 27, 2024 9:23 am

Timo_Beil wrote: ↑Wed Mar 27, 2024 8:13 am
Peke wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2024 6:45 pm There is also another way to make that work eg. to unplug internet cable from your ISP router when you do not want to have internet, while your LAN/WLAN work normally.
You're not serious, are you?

Peke's profile says that his location is "Earth"
I do wonder. Some of his posts here make me sometimes wonder whether he is from Betelgeuse

It just seems illogical that I can turn off Internet access for tag, art & lyrics lookup, but I can't turn off the Wikipedia access.
Why? Just because Big Brother says so?

I would not turn off the Wikipedia access myself, and I hardly ever visit the panel which triggers the lookup anyway.

But I read posts here, and elsewhere, where it obvious that this kind of enforced Internet usage pisses off or inconveniences people for whatever reason; eg slow Internet, or expensive Internet, or they are not allowed to access the Internet for personal purposes, or they just don't appreciate been dictated to.

+1 ... it should be possible to configure off the lookup

by **Timo_Beil** » Wed Mar 27, 2024 8:13 am

Peke wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2024 6:45 pm Yes and no, this is why EULA exist. It is not reasonable that Music management application be also a firewall/Anti virus/Ads blocker/internet security app.

Nobody wants MM to act as an firewall or an other security prog. as you claim. You are mixing things up, the program groups you mention have the task of protecting the entire pc.
MM should keep its big mouth shut like other Media-Player do.

Peke wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2024 6:45 pm There is also another way to make that work eg. to unplug internet cable from your ISP router when you do not want to have internet, while your LAN/WLAN work normally.

You're not serious, are you?
So I first tell my wife and kids that there's no Internet for a few hours and then run down 3 floors to the basement to fumble a fiber optic cable out of the router or back in with the help of a flashlight?

Rusty's suggestion in Mantis to simply not use the info panel (My Library) is similarly funny. This is switched on automatically during some searches (find more....)

by **Peke** » Tue Mar 26, 2024 6:45 pm

Hi,

Rob_S wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2024 5:36 pm I think this is what the above request is all about. Should it not be within the capabilities of Media monkey to set such parameters,

Yes and no, this is why EULA exist. It is not reasonable that Music management application be also a firewall/Anti virus/Ads blocker/internet security app.

Do not forget that MM is modular and Script developers can access any site, so in your case MM would need to first block that script, then we need to spend work time to debug/test and authorize script then develop UI for that script control.

Rob_S wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2024 5:36 pm So, lets say for example I want to enable access to musicbrainz for tagging, but not any other sites for image lookup, related tracks, lyrics, or bios, or anything else I may not have thought of???

For that you use firewall or router or parental control (where MM would be child that is parented/controlled). Thaat would be completely new application within MM. I personally from my 30+ years of experience think that users who know thaat there is no "magic security app" pay more attention what they do than users that have "magic security app" installed eg. users that have best anti virus installed more often be infected with virus than users taht do not have any anti virus installed. Simply because users without anti virus pay more attention what they click on than those with antivirus. Personally on all of my PCs in house I do not have Antivirus installed, but I have Dedicated firewall router that do exactly what you want. Finally please note that in many cases this needs to be maintained at least once a day (exactly like antivirus database is updated several times a day)

Rob_S wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2024 5:36 pm without the user having to install and learn another application ?

With WFC you do not learn any new app, but just have simplified GUI to already embed and implemented Windows Firewall. I personally built one PC without any antivirus for sole purpose to test WFC behavior when I install ransomware on it and it blocked it in such way that no files or data was leaked.

There is also another way to make that work eg. to unplug internet cable from your ISP router when you do not want to have internet, while your LAN/WLAN work normally.

by **Rob_S** » Tue Mar 26, 2024 5:36 pm

So, lets say for example I want to enable access to musicbrainz for tagging, but not any other sites for image lookup, related tracks, lyrics, or bios, or anything else I may not have thought of???

I think this is what the above request is all about. Should it not be within the capabilities of Media monkey to set such parameters, without the user having to install and learn another application ?

[REQ] Option to disable online accesses [#20489]

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