Should I upgrade to MMW5?

by **Barry4679** » Mon Sep 13, 2021 3:46 am

benzo8 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 12, 2021 7:03 am
Barry4679 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 12, 2021 1:48 am it is easier to find Peter Gabriel if you have forgotten his first name
This is valid, but it wasn't a problem that needed to be solved - I could aways type Gabriel into the search box in MM4 and get Peter, along with a reminder that I really need to listen to Lamb again sometime!

I was going to counter by saying that the MM4 search box was context destroying, ie looks outside the current collection.
But I see that I have already forgotten MM4, and that the MM4 search box has the option of respecting, or ignoring the current context.

So I agree, MM4 was better in that respect, and it wasn't a problem that needed solving.

And It is now an extra migration gotya:

The MM4 search box on the right is contextual by default

MM5 has also has a search control on the right, but it is hard wired to global

And it is now klutzy:

in MM5 you have an extra click to open the criteria box, it was always open in MM4

as i say, that is now a global search

once you ahve clicked and the the right hand criteria box has opened, a menu dropdown icon becomes visible, which contains a one-time option to toggle the search to contextual

but if you take that option, you have to be attentive to your peripheral vison, because instead of using the criteria box that you had just opened (like MM4), it closes that box, an opens a different criteria box way over on the opposite edge of the screen

and you must take the one-time option before to start typing your filter critera, because the option disappears once you type your first character

I presume that the change was made to de-clutter the toolbar, which has more going on in MM5.

benzo8 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 12, 2021 7:03 am I think like a lot of these things, they're designed by coders whose ideas are great, but who are not UX specialists. There should be one overriding rule in interface design - it should be intuitive. Thinking for itself is one thing, but changing the scope of a search query because the diplay template has changed is counter-intuitive in the extreme.

I tried that argument during the Beta phase. Their response had some merit.

Paraphrasing their argument from the Beta Test phase:
Grid view shows only albums ... if the user types lamb, they will not expect to see albums like "Streetnoise" by Brian Auger and Julie Driscoll, just because it contains a track with title of "Vauxhall to Lambeth Bridge"

As already discussed, it is less good decision if the user has already made a query, and is just changing Views.

And they don't allow any way to manually override the mechanism, by making an explicit Grid View query like title:lamb

by **benzo8** » Sun Sep 12, 2021 7:03 am

Barry4679 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 12, 2021 1:48 am I call that a bug too, but it is working as designed (apparently).

The documentation does not cover this, but search|filter criteria work differently in different contexts.

Your first query was in Grid view, where any supplied criteria looks only at album level criteria, i.e. the albumartist and album title attributes.

When you switched across to one of the list views, you were displaying tracks, so any supplied criteria looks at both track and album level attributes ... ie "Any Text"
...
IMO MM5 suffers from thinking that it is an AI in some situations ... and can get it wrong

I think like a lot of these things, they're designed by coders whose ideas are great, but who are not UX specialists. There should be one overriding rule in interface design - it should be intuitive. Thinking for itself is one thing, but changing the scope of a search query because the diplay template has changed is counter-intuitive in the extreme.

Barry4679 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 12, 2021 1:48 am it is easier to find Peter Gabriel if you have forgotten his first name

This is valid, but it wasn't a problem that needed to be solved - I could aways type Gabriel into the search box in MM4 and get Peter, along with a reminder that I really need to listen to Lamb again sometime!

by **benzo8** » Sun Sep 12, 2021 6:57 am

Lowlander wrote: ↑Sun Sep 12, 2021 12:06 am That can be enabled with show all subnodes: https://www.mediamonkey.com/wiki/WebHel ... 0#Settings

Again, thank you - this does work.

I'm at a loss as to why all these things are now buried and their MM4 behaviour defaulted to off. Surely a far more approachable way of doing this would have been to have the default MM5 settings mimic MM4 for familiarity's sake, and then have all these options to customise them if people chose to do so?

by **Barry4679** » Sun Sep 12, 2021 1:48 am

benzo8 wrote: ↑Sat Sep 11, 2021 9:04 pm And in playing with this, I think I've found a bug:
If I select the Album Artists node, displaying in Grid Mode and type Genesis, it finds Genesis the band. If I click on that I get their albums, but if I then want to change to List mode or List (by Album) Mode, the Genesis search has become a "Any text" search - this is confirmed by then changing to Advanced Mode.
Similarly, if I'm already in List mode or List (by Album) mode, the text I type, despite being show as part of the breadcrumbs as past of the Album Artists node, is a free text search. This is counter-intuitive at best, particularly given how MM4 worked in this regard (it would jump down to the expanded sub-node, which, by definition, would be the Artist your were looking for).

I call that a bug too, but it is working as designed (apparently).

The documentation does not cover this, but search|filter criteria work differently in different contexts.

Your first query was in Grid view, where any supplied criteria looks only at album level criteria, i.e. the albumartist and album title attributes.

When you switched across to one of the list views, you were displaying tracks, so any supplied criteria looks at both track and album level attributes ... ie "Any Text"

If you wanted the same targeted result in a List view the criteria should be albumartist:genesis

But where it becomes entirely indefensible (IMO), is when you go in the reverse direction. ie:

be in a list mode, and type albumartist:genesis ... all good so far

then switch to Grid mode ===> and the result is empty !!!

that is because despite what is inferred in the documentation, or is explicitly stated in the hover tool tip, a fieldname:xxx query is silently ignored in Grid mode,

and it is also despite what I obviously intended via the supplied citeria

IMO MM5 suffers from thinking that it is an AI in some situations ... and can get it wrong

benzo8 wrote: ↑Sat Sep 11, 2021 9:04 pm Similarly, if I'm already in List mode or List (by Album) mode, the text I type, despite being show as part of the breadcrumbs as past of the Album Artists node, is a free text search. This is counter-intuitive at best, particularly given how MM4 worked in this regard (it would jump down to the expanded sub-node, which, by definition, would be the Artist your were looking for).

The new MM5 behaviour does have upsides ...

it is easier to find Peter Gabriel if you have forgotten his first name

you can regain more space for the centre panel, by leaving the left panel permanently closed

All Text criteria is a powerful tool, and MM5 elevates it front and centre

it is not real easy to see what a "sub-node" is in MM5:

every now and then I find out, but then I forget because it doesn't completely make sense (to me)

each sub-node has its own state ... eg the last view that was in use, and any tailoring of the view (columns displayed, column display order, row sort sequence, etc)

some sub-nodes have extra views (eg Years)

some sub-nodes have extra options, eg. Albums view has Sort By options

but, as you say, a sub-node has no impact upon how sort|filter criteria is interpreted

some of what you think as being sub-node behaviour, has been outsourced to the View

on the whole I think it is ok ... but the Grid view should respect fieldname:xxx syntax IMO

by **Lowlander** » Sun Sep 12, 2021 12:06 am

That can be enabled with show all subnodes: https://www.mediamonkey.com/wiki/WebHel ... 0#Settings

by **benzo8** » Sat Sep 11, 2021 9:04 pm

Lowlander wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 9:39 am 2) This is done differently, but still can be done: https://www.mediamonkey.com/wiki/WebHel ... ecursively

Yes, that seems to work, thanks.

It does lead on to another gotcha though - the nodes under "Entire Library" are not expandable. In MM4, under Artist (for example), it would populate all the artists so drilling down on a single artist was easy. You could then expand them to see their albums. In MM5, this isn't expandable so the only ways to drill down to a specific artist is to use the Grid View or, from List View, to scroll down, right-click and select "Find More from same..." Given my collection has over 150,000 files, this is slow and cumbersome - exactly what MediaMonkey 4 was not.

And in playing with this, I think I've found a bug:
If I select the Album Artists node, displaying in Grid Mode and type Genesis, it finds Genesis the band. If I click on that I get their albums, but if I then want to change to List mode or List (by Album) Mode, the Genesis search has become a "Any text" search - this is confirmed by then changing to Advanced Mode.
Similarly, if I'm already in List mode or List (by Album) mode, the text I type, despite being show as part of the breadcrumbs as past of the Album Artists node, is a free text search. This is counter-intuitive at best, particularly given how MM4 worked in this regard (it would jump down to the expanded sub-node, which, by definition, would be the Artist your were looking for).

by **crawdad63** » Sat Sep 11, 2021 9:45 am

The Dark Material Design skin is friggin' ugly as sin. It looks like somebody threw up candy corn all over MM5. Whomever chose this as your default skin should be fired. I'm not being facetious either. I notice the red and purple skins aren't showing up. No great loss. Using the massive bottom player and their choices of fonts were huge mistakes even though I liked the color schemes. That being said, the unfortunately named black skin may be the best skin I've ever seen on any media player. I would love to be able to change it's color schemes ala Winamp.

Also, the ability to change the size of the pop up display would be nice. Even for a split second it is intrusive. I like having it, but I just want it to be (much) smaller.

by **Lowlander** » Fri Sep 10, 2021 9:39 am

2) This is done differently, but still can be done: https://www.mediamonkey.com/wiki/WebHel ... ecursively
3) You can use a Hotkey Ctrl+Alt+P if it's easier. Anyway muscle memory can be retrained, it will be annoying for just a bit.

by **benzo8** » Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:20 am

For me, after a day of using MM5, here are the showstopper things I miss:

1. The RegExp Search and Replace add-on. The ability to manipulate tags en masse has been the main reason I've used MM since I don't-know-when-but-it's-been-a-long-time! (EDIT: 2008, apparently!)
2. "All" missing as a sub-folder option
3. Properties now not being at the bottom of the context menu - my muscle-memory (see about) hates this!

That's it, I think. Obviously there are more changes than this, but these three are the ones breaking my daily usage right now.

by **Peke** » Wed Sep 08, 2021 4:43 am

dypsis wrote: ↑Wed Sep 08, 2021 4:02 am Let's forget about the foreplay and discuss how we're gonna make MediaMonkey 5 better.

In order to make things better there needs to be foreplay, but I agree 100% with you.

pokeefe0001 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 07, 2021 10:52 pm Actually, there is nothing interesting there. We're in Seattle, WA, USA. Other than one 2nd generation Serb and one 3rd generation Croat, none of us have any ethnic connection with the Balkans. We just like Balkan folkdancing. (Or what we think of as Balkan folkdancing.)

If you need any help about that I am native, but we can do that in PM.

pokeefe0001 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 07, 2021 10:52 pm Well, I oversimplified my description a bit. MM 2.5 plus a WinAmp extension that allows slowing of playback (PaceMaker), a WinAmp extension that adds a pause between tracks (Pause&Resume), a slightly modified Blue Monkey skin, and script that displays the track title on an external monitor. I understand the the WinAmp extensions will have to be replaced with something else. I assume it's possible to make the MM5 display look pretty much like like the old Blue Monkey appearance but it will probably not be easy for someone that barely knows JS/HTML/CSS. I suspect creating an undocked display with the track title would be trivial for someone that knows knows JS/HTML/CSS.

DSP plugins support in MM5 is worked on as we speak, they stopped working because they can't hook to MM5 Multi threaded UI

Add pause is already in making on the forum and increased possibility to add it natively.
Have you tried Groove MM5 Skin?
Regarding Big Screen Title, try MM5 Playing Tree node, to show you big screen and you can even instead of Lyrics show steps that will help you in coordination of a group.
Re Undock Window. For now there is no code sample for it, but I guess it should be fairly easy.

by **dypsis** » Wed Sep 08, 2021 4:02 am

Peke wrote: ↑Mon Sep 06, 2021 5:28 pm It is same for MM4 API, but we were younger, no family/kids and could spend weeks to make plugin that will play exact right track in the middle of foreplay to heighten the mood. Now while balancing parenthood and work I can only wish to have time for foreplay with/without music in 15 minute break, while kids sleep.

Let's forget about the foreplay and discuss how we're gonna make MediaMonkey 5 better.

by **pokeefe0001** » Tue Sep 07, 2021 10:52 pm

Peke wrote: ↑Tue Sep 07, 2021 5:28 pm
pokeefe0001 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 06, 2021 7:42 pm I think what you've described is a migration path for addon developers, not end users.
Reason why there is no Migration path for users. MM5 is rewrite, it simply asks you to load MM4 Library and settings that can be used in MM5 and other things are essentially new product with same (or almost same) features as Vanilla MM4.

I understand that and I expect there was not much choice, but giving users an essentially new product (rather than a product that mostly looks and feels much like the old product) means they might as well look at competitive products, too. You are likely to loose some users.

Peke wrote: ↑Tue Sep 07, 2021 5:28 pm
pokeefe0001 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 06, 2021 7:42 pmOur group may be very non-typical, but let me describe it. We are a group of 50-60 Balkan folkdancers.
You never told us where are you from?

Actually, there is nothing interesting there. We're in Seattle, WA, USA. Other than one 2nd generation Serb and one 3rd generation Croat, none of us have any ethnic connection with the Balkans. We just like Balkan folkdancing. (Or what we think of as Balkan folkdancing.)

Peke wrote: ↑Tue Sep 07, 2021 5:28 pm
pokeefe0001 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 06, 2021 7:42 pmOf that group maybe 6 of us know how to use MediaMonkey. 3 of us are somewhat technically competent (I, less so than the other 2). Only 2 of us know MediaMonkey forums exist. One had done very minor customization of MediaMonkey - picking a skin and installing a couple scripts (1 with minor modifications) - about 10 years ago. I suspect that is not an unusual description of MM users.
Exactly the point only thing you see as difference is UI organization, while features should be the same. What exact features you need as if you were satisfied with MM 2.x you really need most basic ones and that should not posses the problem in MM5.

Well, I oversimplified my description a bit. MM 2.5 plus a WinAmp extension that allows slowing of playback (PaceMaker), a WinAmp extension that adds a pause between tracks (Pause&Resume), a slightly modified Blue Monkey skin, and script that displays the track title on an external monitor. I understand the the WinAmp extensions will have to be replaced with something else. I assume it's possible to make the MM5 display look pretty much like like the old Blue Monkey appearance but it will probably not be easy for someone that barely knows JS/HTML/CSS. I suspect creating an undocked display with the track title would be trivial for someone that knows knows JS/HTML/CSS.

Peke wrote: ↑Tue Sep 07, 2021 5:28 pm
pokeefe0001 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 06, 2021 7:42 pmAbout 4 months ago I decided to upgrade our copies of MediaMonkey from MM 2.5 to MM 4.1. When looking on the forum for assistance I discovered that MM 5 exists and that all customization for previous versions is now obsolete. I'm one of the lucky ones - I've found out before previous versions stop running.
Exactly my point, with past 5 years users like you seeking only minimal features, can get overwhelming with new look, that is not as minimalist as MM2, but deep down it is the same thing. Except skins and familiar look is there anything missing in MM5 that MM4 without its addons is missing?

Other than what I just mentioned, I don''t think there's anything else, but I think you're minimizing the importance of the skins and familiar look. The average age of our group is probably around 65-70 years old. While most of us deal with worthwhile change with only a little grumbling the change to the look and feel of MediaMonkey gives us a learning curve with on benefit at the end.

by **Peke** » Tue Sep 07, 2021 5:28 pm

pokeefe0001 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 06, 2021 7:42 pm I think what you've described is a migration path for addon developers, not end users.

Reason why there is no Migration path for users. MM5 is rewrite, it simply asks you to load MM4 Library and settings that can be used in MM5 and other things are essentially new product with same (or almost same) features as Vanilla MM4.

pokeefe0001 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 06, 2021 7:42 pmI have no idea what the "typical" MM user is like.

Based on our feedback typical user is one that wants all his media files listed in single place, easy to search and play, along with freedom to create playlists that will enhance experience.

pokeefe0001 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 06, 2021 7:42 pmOur group may be very non-typical, but let me describe it. We are a group of 50-60 Balkan folkdancers.

You never told us where are you from?

pokeefe0001 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 06, 2021 7:42 pmOf that group maybe 6 of us know how to use MediaMonkey. 3 of us are somewhat technically competent (I, less so than the other 2). Only 2 of us know MediaMonkey forums exist. One had done very minor customization of MediaMonkey - picking a skin and installing a couple scripts (1 with minor modifications) - about 10 years ago. I suspect that is not an unusual description of MM users.

Exactly the point only thing you see as difference is UI organization, while features should be the same. What exact features you need as if you were satisfied with MM 2.x you really need most basic ones and that should not posses the problem in MM5.

pokeefe0001 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 06, 2021 7:42 pmAbout 4 months ago I decided to upgrade our copies of MediaMonkey from MM 2.5 to MM 4.1. When looking on the forum for assistance I discovered that MM 5 exists and that all customization for previous versions is now obsolete. I'm one of the lucky ones - I've found out before previous versions stop running.

Exactly my point, with past 5 years users like you seeking only minimal features, can get overwhelming with new look, that is not as minimalist as MM2, but deep down it is the same thing. Except skins and familiar look is there anything missing in MM5 that MM4 without its addons is missing?

pokeefe0001 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 06, 2021 7:42 pmYou have provided excellent customer service - answering completely bone-head questions I've asked over the past few months. I have absolutely no complaints about that. But I still say your organization has provided no migration path for the non-technical user. I'm thinking of the trivial tasks of upgrading from MM 2 to MM 3 and from MM 3 to MM 4 - migrations that the typical user could easily handle because there was essentially nothing the user had to do. Without something like that you are going to loose users.

Again, When you install MM5 unlike MM4 over MM3 or MM2 We separated the app completely and automated settings migration so existing and new users do not need to think what happened and all is working out of the box, while keeping your existing MM4 installation intact and ready for recall and comparison of features you are used too.

pokeefe0001 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 06, 2021 7:42 pm Perhaps the script convertor is almost that simple but the description I suspect that is not the case. Until 4 months ago I had never written a line of VBS and still have never written a line of JavaScript. (At age 75 I have enough calcified synapses that using the using the tool will probably not be an easy task.)

No all things are possible with converter, especially as each devs have own syntax for variables, own functions, ....

pokeefe0001 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 06, 2021 7:42 pmBut the real problem is the skins. I understand that the rendering engines are completely different but browsers built on those engines render the same HTML strings as the same display. I also understand there may be a great difference between rendering an HTML string coming across the web and rendering some set of static definitions in a program, but I would expect some isomorphic mapping between the MM4 definition of a screen image and the MM5 definition of that same image. If so, a program should be able to do that mapping. (I probably am taking a very simplistic view of the world here.)

Only if things are that simple. MM4 used hardcoded UI objects within core application and MM5 uses Chromium to use standard HTML/CSS/JS to dynamically generate UI and use/query Core data.

I agree with you, but you have not provided any example what you actually want to archive. Screenshots, comparisons, pointers and unlike upgrading MM2 -> MM4 Upgrade MM4 -> MM5 was simpler.

by **Peke** » Tue Sep 07, 2021 4:36 pm

dypsis wrote: ↑Mon Sep 06, 2021 10:07 pm Peke, you're gonna have to cut back on the foreplay if you wanna get any work done.

That is long gone, there is none, I already get up each morning 2 hours earlier in order to have 26h day, but maybe i'll get extended time every leap year or maybe during daylight time change

Barry4679 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 07, 2021 1:05 am
So funny, thanks for the laufgh.

For you maybe, not for me

by **Barry4679** » Tue Sep 07, 2021 1:05 am

dypsis wrote: ↑Mon Sep 06, 2021 10:07 pm Peke, you're gonna have to cut back on the foreplay if you wanna get any work done.

So funny, thanks for the laufgh.

Should I upgrade to MMW5?

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