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Re: Devices known to synch correctly

Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 10:28 am
by nohitter151
NocturnalOne wrote:If you know the product so well that you can put down newbies why not simply point out that 'send to' is not meant to sync?

Thanks for pointing out the automatic sync. Sorry for not reading the manual first.
I wasn't trying to "put you down".

In fact quite often I do tell users that "send to" doesn't sync. However, there wasn't any indication of you using "send to" in your original post, hence me saying that it was probably a settings problem. I might know MM well, but that doesn't make me psychic! You were free to post your settings that you used and someone (or I) could then explain to you what to change.

Re: Devices known to synch correctly

Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 12:44 pm
by chrisjj
NocturnalOne wrote:Behavior 3 is per the documentation (it says send to always copies) but not as expected give that it says 'synchronize'
What MM means by 'synchronize' is not what just about every other program means by 'synchronize'.

Send is in MM called "synchronise" (or sometimes "send")
Synchronise is in MM called "auto sync"
Auto-sync in in MM non-existent, except upon device connect.

Re: Devices known to synch correctly

Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 3:33 pm
by davidbspalding
NocturnalOne wrote:...
3- right click on a play list->send to->Nokia 5800 Memory Card (Synchronize) copies but does not synchronize. To me this is obvious way to sync a playlist and it does not work.

... Behavior 3 is per the documentation (it says send to always copies) but not as expected give that it says 'synchronize'. It also different from Winamp which does synchronize when you send a playlist to a device. Of course MM can implement whatever they want but POLS should apply. It would be nice if either MM would sync in this case or if that's not desired/possible remove the 'synchronize' from the menu item....
That's a bug, clear and simple imho. I'd open a support ticket and request a bug be filed.

Re: Devices known to synch correctly

Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 3:42 pm
by nohitter151
davidbspalding wrote: That's a bug, clear and simple imho. I'd open a support ticket and request a bug be filed.
No, that is the intended behavior. Check the help file.

Re: Devices known to synch correctly

Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 4:07 pm
by davidbspalding
Alright, tried a few more things along with reading the docs :)

1- automatic sync works but is not intuitive to new users (has to be enabled separately in the options)
2- drop 'n drag sync of playlists onto the device node works but not user friendly IMO (with a full explorer this quickly becomes cumbersome)
3- right click on a play list->send to->Nokia 5800 Memory Card (Synchronize) copies but does not synchronize. To me this is obvious way to sync a playlist and it does not work.
4- synchronizing in 'mass storage' mode does not sync playlists (Nokia problem I imagine)

Behavior 3 is per the documentation (it says send to always copies) but not as expected give that it says 'synchronize'. It also different from Winamp which does synchronize when you send a playlist to a device. Of course MM can implement whatever they want but POLS should apply. It would be nice if either MM would sync in this case or if that's not desired/possible remove the 'synchronize' from the menu item.
Manually Sync your Tracks

If you want to do a one-time manual sync of set of Tracks:
1. Select a Playlist, AutoPlaylist or a group of tracks and drag them onto the Device node or onto the Device button.

or

Select the tracks you wish to sync and right-click Send to > iPod Device .

or

From the Now Playing Dialog, click Copy > Copy to Portable Device.
2. Or, if you plan on always synchronizing in this manner, set the mode of the Synchronize button on the toolbar to 'Synchronize Selected'. Then Select a Playlist, AutoPlaylist, or group of Tracks and click the Synchronize button.

The selected Tracks and Playlists will sync to the device per per your configuration.

Copying Tracks Manually

To simply copy tracks to a device without using synchronization functionality, use the Send To > Folder (My Computer) option that is available when right-clicking any Track. This will only work for USB Mass Storage devices.
I must not understand the discrepancy here.... If he "Sends to [device] (synchronize)" a play list, wont it "synchronize" the tracks in that play list?

Re: Devices known to synch correctly

Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 4:15 pm
by nohitter151
davidbspalding wrote: I must not understand the discrepancy here.... If he "Sends to [device] (synchronize)" a play list, wont it "synchronize" the tracks in that play list?
It copies all of the tracks and the playlist to the device. That's the intended function (i.e. "one time"). MM doesn't 'remember' what it synced so if you repeat the process, everything is copied again.

Re: Devices known to synch correctly

Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 2:58 pm
by davidbspalding
chrissjj wrote:What MM means by 'synchronize' is not what just about every other program means by 'synchronize'.

Send is in MM called "synchronise" (or sometimes "send")
Synchronise is in MM called "auto sync"
Auto-sync in in MM non-existent, except upon device connect.
davidbspalding wrote:
NocturnalOne wrote:...
3- right click on a play list->send to->Nokia 5800 Memory Card (Synchronize) copies but does not synchronize. To me this is obvious way to sync a playlist and it does not work.

... Behavior 3 is per the documentation (it says send to always copies) but not as expected give that it says 'synchronize'. It also different from Winamp which does synchronize when you send a playlist to a device. Of course MM can implement whatever they want but POLS should apply. It would be nice if either MM would sync in this case or if that's not desired/possible remove the 'synchronize' from the menu item....
That's a bug, clear and simple imho. I'd open a support ticket and request a bug be filed.
nohitter151 wrote:
davidbspalding wrote: I must not understand the discrepancy here.... If he "Sends to [device] (synchronize)" a play list, wont it "synchronize" the tracks in that play list?
It copies all of the tracks and the playlist to the device. That's the intended function (i.e. "one time"). MM doesn't 'remember' what it synced so if you repeat the process, everything is copied again.
Sounds like a clear discrepancy in the use of the word synchronize. If MM uses the term to refer "keeping two sets of data in the same state," i.e. the files on the remote device are kept in same version as the ones in the main repository, then using synchronize in this circumstance (Send to device (synchronize)) is inaccurate. If I understand you correctly, the MM design is that synchronize is a one-time, one-way function, and auto-sync is the function wherein changes to files on either side are reflected in updates to correlating files. I've gathered from RTFM that auto-sync is a synchronization process (files are paired up, and changes flow two ways, left to right, or right to left) but automated to occur immediately upon connection of the appropriate device. (E.g. Auto-Sync Options, Auto-Sync Configuration, et al.)

If the Send To command is simply "copying" the files over, they're not maintained in a synchronized state, and play metrics or ratings are not synched back to the main repository. I think the bug is in misuse of the term "synchronization" when no persistence or update of files is taking place after initial execution.

I'm not trying to browbeat you here, simply corroborate my claim that this is a bug, not "the users don't understand the design." Software design based on misuse or misinterpretation of a commonly understood word ... is an usability issue. :wink:

(Edited 3/15 1754Z to remove clumsy, redundant assertions, clarify.)

Re: Devices known to synch correctly

Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 12:58 pm
by davidbspalding
I updated my previous post to tone down the strident tone. A bit. I'm done editing it now. Really.

Re: Devices known to synch correctly

Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 6:32 pm
by nohitter151
No doubt that the terminology is confusing. I just wanted to make it clear that the functions at least works as intended (as you are describing them).

Re: Devices known to synch correctly

Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 7:07 pm
by NocturnalOne
Well I *thought* auto sync worked OK but I was too optimistic. Something is seriously broken. Yesterday I sync'd another device I had. It started copying a ton of files and I had to stop the process because I ran out of time. This morning I plugged in my phone and it started copying more than 400 files. It seems that it 'remembered' it needed to copy a bunch of files but didn't recognize that a different player was plugged in. Both are listed separately in the options though. Clearly there's something quite broken even in the auto sync mode. Almost as if it's affected by the earlier sync. To give MM a 'hand' I removed all files from the phone and let it auto sync everything again. It did not copy all playlists. I then unplugged and re-plugged the phone, in mass storage mode this time. I had it auto sync all the playlists yet again. When it was done I let is auto sync some more. It kept trying to update a single file, no matter how often I tried. As a final test I replugged the phone, in mass storage mode again. This time it auto sync'd 4 songs. Subsequent syncs copied nothing (as it should).

I just plugged the phone back in, in PC Suite mode. This is the only mode that transfers playlists properly but it's slower than mass storage. Luckily this time sync worked OK. The second time as well. I hope it stays that way. I'd rather not keep transfering GBs of data. I'm a bit apprehensive about trying to sync that other player now :)

If a MM developer wants to work with me to debug this further I'd be glad to help.

Re: Devices known to synch correctly

Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:53 pm
by davidbspalding
There are instructions here for running MM in debug mode.

I may have to start doing that consistently myself. MM somehow confused KorovaIpod with KorovaNano (two different devices) this past weekend, and synced the Classic (160GB) as if it was the Nano (8GB; 3G), wrote the customary ~400 tracks (6.5GB), and wrote the database as if the rest of the music was "other." Yep, the playlists were the ones specifically for the Nano. ,:\ Sunday MM had to resync and rebuild 40GB+ of music ... took most of the day (I access the music over wifi).

Autosyncing is definitely prone to failure. The key is to NOT interrupt syncing by disconnecting the device prematurely (yep, even for a second). And ensure you disconnect the device safely (either MM's menu command, or Windows Safely Eject Hardware function).

Re: Devices known to synch correctly

Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 7:07 pm
by buckw
I see that the Cowon S9 synchs correctly. Any word on the newer Cowon J3?

Re: Devices known to synch correctly

Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 8:57 pm
by nohitter151
buckw wrote:I see that the Cowon S9 synchs correctly. Any word on the newer Cowon J3?
If it syncs with WMP then it should work fine with MM.

Re: Devices known to synch correctly

Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 7:39 am
by jlaakso
Nokia X6 works well. (Far superior to their own software!)

Re: Devices known to synch correctly

Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 6:53 am
by IronEagle
Philips Ariaz SA1ARA08K works fine in MTP mode, as long as the Philips plugin is running on the computer, in the background