by Jim Kelly » Tue Feb 28, 2023 9:09 pm
Hi Barry and Rob, very nice to see your 'feeling your pain' responses - thanks!
Rob_S wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 9:50 am
- They almost need one of the coders to write one, because only they fully understand it.
- Time and money is better spent improving the code than writing about it
- Finding anyone who can write clear consistent understandable manuals and knows the program may well be harder than finding coders
- The software interface is supposed to be somewhat self-explanatory, except when it isn't
- Most manuals tell you in sequence left to right what each menu item or button does, but not how to accomplish a task
- For each task there are so many nuances and personal preferences it becomes unwieldy like a humungous flowchart
etc, etc
Agree with all of those points Rob.
There are many beautifully written explanations on some items for MM where a great deal of effort has gone into presentation and consideration for users at all levels.
I think if these portions were put together in a well recognised logical manner it would be a great start, with complex stuff hidden behind "More info" buttons to keep the reader's attention on perusing the guide for the missing bits of info to help learn whatever is needed at the time.
In my experience, the best way is for a newbee to be closely observed by the coder documentor as s/he is **silently** editing each finished document. Purpose is to observe where a newbee falls into an unexpected hole simply because they do not yet have enough 'prior knowledge'. These points are often easily fixed both in the code and backed up in the documentation BUT are very very hard for a coder to foresee because they know everything so very well. Too well! The chosen coder of course has to be quite special to resist showing/telling/teaching the newbee, to resist a scornful attitude, and to take pleasure in seeing the newbee react differently after the fixes have been attended to in a manner that ALL newbees will then benefit.
Rob_S wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 9:50 am
A good forum is better than thousands of pages of manuals describing the obvious in great detail, and lacking the tidbits of knowledge we can find here.
Exactly Rob.
Regardless, I do miss the days of 'Compuserve' where each subject also had a library to store attachments for timeless advice, examples, images, freebies, etc;
And another place where 'Sticky' documents were placed and gradually improved by members as a kind of perpetual reference. A bit like a structured FAQ.
These notions have largely disappeared in modern forums but I believe could be reinstated in a forum such as this. Certainly worthy of some thought?
The starting point would be to start with the
Table of Contents, with a focus on a very logical order that is immediately encouraging for users of all levels. This needs to be done by an enthusiast who has a thorough understanding of the different ways that MM is used. This may be a useful top level structure itself, along with the portions that are essential knowledge for all users. I say this so it provides a way of moving great wads of specialist knowledge away from the view of a new user.
Barry4679 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 8:07 am
The only danger that you are in, is some loss of enthusiasm, due to the crushing unearnt complacency and indifference in this matter, coming from MM.
Yes Barry, I
am struggling with that at the moment!
But if I see some of the issues that I can bring to the table being FIXED, then I will keep being an active contributor and user (after six or more years of not using MM at all - life got in the way).
Jim Kelly wrote: ↑Mon Feb 27, 2023 12:52 am
EG-1: How can I remove the right hand panes that pop onto my views but I usually need the maximum display width? Surely a cross 'x' should be at their top right hand corners?
If you are talking about the left and right hand panels, they can be toggled off and on, using the buttons which look a bit like a piano, at the left and right edge of the Toolbar. The toggle is better than an x to close, because the panel is easy to toggle back on.
[/quote]
Yes I am.
The right hand panes that appear without being requested, indeed they are scrunched up to be illegible too.
BUT this might be easily fixed because today I stretched one wide open and there appeared an X !!! That X allowed me to instantly close its pane giving me the valuable horizontal pixels back. That X should be available at all times!!! Nothing wrong with the toggle idea too - there is plenty of ways, maybe a history of pains drop down? (Like the 'Previous-view'and Next-view' button dropdowns work).
Thanks again,
Jim Kelly,
Hi Barry and Rob, very nice to see your 'feeling your pain' responses - thanks!
[quote=Rob_S post_id=507023 time=1677595827 user_id=112670]
- They almost need one of the coders to write one, because only they fully understand it.
- Time and money is better spent improving the code than writing about it
- Finding anyone who can write clear consistent understandable manuals and knows the program may well be harder than finding coders
- The software interface is supposed to be somewhat self-explanatory, except when it isn't
- Most manuals tell you in sequence left to right what each menu item or button does, but not how to accomplish a task
- For each task there are so many nuances and personal preferences it becomes unwieldy like a humungous flowchart
etc, etc
[/quote]
Agree with all of those points Rob.
There are many beautifully written explanations on some items for MM where a great deal of effort has gone into presentation and consideration for users at all levels.
I think if these portions were put together in a well recognised logical manner it would be a great start, with complex stuff hidden behind "More info" buttons to keep the reader's attention on perusing the guide for the missing bits of info to help learn whatever is needed at the time.
In my experience, the best way is for a newbee to be closely observed by the coder documentor as s/he is **silently** editing each finished document. Purpose is to observe where a newbee falls into an unexpected hole simply because they do not yet have enough 'prior knowledge'. These points are often easily fixed both in the code and backed up in the documentation BUT are very very hard for a coder to foresee because they know everything so very well. Too well! The chosen coder of course has to be quite special to resist showing/telling/teaching the newbee, to resist a scornful attitude, and to take pleasure in seeing the newbee react differently after the fixes have been attended to in a manner that ALL newbees will then benefit.
[quote=Rob_S post_id=507023 time=1677595827 user_id=112670]
A good forum is better than thousands of pages of manuals describing the obvious in great detail, and lacking the tidbits of knowledge we can find here.
[/quote]
Exactly Rob.
Regardless, I do miss the days of 'Compuserve' where each subject also had a library to store attachments for timeless advice, examples, images, freebies, etc;
And another place where 'Sticky' documents were placed and gradually improved by members as a kind of perpetual reference. A bit like a structured FAQ.
These notions have largely disappeared in modern forums but I believe could be reinstated in a forum such as this. Certainly worthy of some thought?
The starting point would be to start with the [b]Table of Contents[/b], with a focus on a very logical order that is immediately encouraging for users of all levels. This needs to be done by an enthusiast who has a thorough understanding of the different ways that MM is used. This may be a useful top level structure itself, along with the portions that are essential knowledge for all users. I say this so it provides a way of moving great wads of specialist knowledge away from the view of a new user.
[quote=Barry4679 post_id=507021 time=1677589625 user_id=28275]
The only danger that you are in, is some loss of enthusiasm, due to the crushing unearnt complacency and indifference in this matter, coming from MM.
[/quote]
Yes Barry, I [i]am[/i] struggling with that at the moment!
But if I see some of the issues that I can bring to the table being FIXED, then I will keep being an active contributor and user (after six or more years of not using MM at all - life got in the way).
[quote="Jim Kelly" post_id=506964 time=1677477147 user_id=63392]
EG-1: How can I remove the right hand panes that pop onto my views but I usually need the maximum display width? Surely a cross 'x' should be at their top right hand corners?
[/quote]
If you are talking about the left and right hand panels, they can be toggled off and on, using the buttons which look a bit like a piano, at the left and right edge of the Toolbar. The toggle is better than an x to close, because the panel is easy to toggle back on.
[/quote]
Yes I am.
The right hand panes that appear without being requested, indeed they are scrunched up to be illegible too.
BUT this might be easily fixed because today I stretched one wide open and there appeared an X !!! That X allowed me to instantly close its pane giving me the valuable horizontal pixels back. That X should be available at all times!!! Nothing wrong with the toggle idea too - there is plenty of ways, maybe a history of pains drop down? (Like the 'Previous-view'and Next-view' button dropdowns work).
Thanks again,
Jim Kelly,